Subject: Re: What I want from my Common Lisp vendor and the Common Lisp community From: Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.net> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:29:50 GMT Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp Message-ID: <3208249787029711@naggum.net> * Siegfried Gonzi <siegfried.gonzi@kfunigraz.ac.at> > Your message has been very interesting, but Erik: You are a naive guy. Really? Naïve. Nobody has ever said that before. I think you are reading a _lot_ of stuff into what I said that simply is not there, and the rest of your message is so far out I think this conclusion is warranted. > Do you really believe there is a collaboration between dealers and the > user-community? Um, actually, yes (provided that you meant "vendor", as in producer of products). If you do not believe there is, you are simply ignorant and cynical. > On one side you are promoting (in other posts) that only > commercial-dealers are capable of producing a good Lisp product and now > you are whining. I am whining? About what? Are you sure you have read what I wrote? > Erik, there will never be the situation when dealers will ask you what > you want. And this has what to do with what I said? Do you perhaps not see the difference between stating what I want from a vendor and wanting them to ask me what I want? Why should the vendor ask _me_ for anything but my money? The real question is how smart they are in trying to pry them loose from my hard and fast grip when I tell them that I want a fully conforming implementation of Common Lisp and some enthusiasm, please. If they are just a wee bit smarter than completely asinine bozos, they will understand that denouncing the very things I came to them to purchase is not the way to do it. Unless, of course, they have been taught by their users that it _is_ OK to denounce the standard they try to implement. > This is not because you are Erik Naggum, its because they run a business > and nothing else. And this has what to do with what I said? What do you think running a business entails? If they say "we hate the standard, but buy the best implementation of that shit from us", do you think they run a business or a freak show? If they ran a business, they would say "we love this stuff, and if you buy the best implementation of this wonderful stuff from us, we'll love you, too". That is what marketing is all about. > I am also a naive guy and often promote a programming language in the > hope the developers want also hear my opinion; but often I get the > impression they do not listen. And this has what to do with what I said? > I am not against commercial-products (even when they are pricy; we also > in the astophysics-community use expensive tools, e.g. IDL costs USD > 2500.-), but open or free software can in some cases be more flexible. And this has what to do with what I said? Is the concept of enthusiasm _really_ this foreign to people? Perhaps this was a naïve thing to do. I mean, post an optimistic, upbeat, enthusiastic message about how languages thrive only when people love them, to a crowd of fucking retards who want their language to wither and die. What was I _thinking_? Well, I put my neck out. If the Common Lisp community rejects enthusiasm and optimism and they really find it much more fascinating to post gloom and doom and listen to the death knell of their past loved ones than to get a grip on themselves and start thinking positively, well, then _I_ have better things to do with my life than to congregate with such pathetic losers. Perhaps this will be a test. Perhaps we will see a show of hands from the negative morons and the positive people who want Common Lisp to live are way outnumbered. Then I have no reason to expect anything from this community at all and the vendors are indeed right to denounce their own livelihood and try to grab as much cash from the poor sods who still use Common Lisp as they can, because they see that they are going downhill and do not even want to _try_ any way to get back on track. Perhaps it was really stupid to ask publicly if people were positive or negative, to ask people to say they love or hate their language, because perhaps everybody just loathes Common Lisp and I am the only "religious zealot" left who likes it? Perhaps the John Foderaros among you are right. But I still hope not. ///